"FOR NJOSH ONLY"

"keeping black women at the center": a conversation between gloria t. hull and barbara

smith

Author(syf J O R U L D W K X O O D Q G E D U E D U D V P L W h

Source: Off Our Backs, Vol. 12, No. 5, Education (May 1982yf S S 3

Published by: off our backs, inc.

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women's studies_

"keeping black women at the center": a conversation

between gloria t. hull and barbara smith BS: We're going to talk first about our experiences as Black women in education and also

about how some of those experiences undoubtedly led us to want to do the kind of book which But Some of Us are Brave is. GTH: I'll start because I went to school

before you did. Actually, there is no very direct correlation for me because I went to

undergraduate school at a southern Black univer

sity from 1962-1966, and even though at that time, it was almost all Black--both students and

faculty?I went through the entire four years as an English major and never really got Black literature. The pattern continued in graduate school. So, I guess if there's any kind of re lationship between my schooling and the book, it was learning that if I was going to do the work I wanted to and thought was important, I had to do it myself, from scratch. You couldn't go and take courses and they would point you to this area. I think this fostered a basic frame of mind that a lot of us had who went into Black women's studies: we knew we had to make

it up and do it ourselves, had to pull it to gether from existing--and, in this case almost, non-existing--materials. BS: That's similar to my experience al though it was lived in a rather different kind of school. I went to a white women's

college (easternyf I U R P $ O W K R X J K I did, in my senior year particularly, have the opportunity to study Black writers, it was be cause I chose to do independent work and not because there was any course. My adviser for that work was a white male who was sympathetic, but the orientation of the times was that Black studies was Black male studies. I was incredi

bly turned on to study Black literature and even decided to go on to graduate school and eventually teach it, but I was oriented toward Black male writers. Then in graduate school in 1971, I took this women's literature seminar which was as the title of our book says, all white, and not only were they white, they were British mostly, not even American authors. So I decided that I'd better find an Afro-American

woman to do my course project on. That's when I got hooked. Actually, it seems that the ex periences we had in college paralleled each other. They had deficiencies for us as Black women, but for different reasons. I went to an

all-white women's college, so sexism per se was not the motivation for the emptiness of the curriculum; of course, it was racism*; whereas you were at a Black college where sexism was a great factor but racism was not. But they both had similar results. In other words, our ab sence in the curriculum.

GTH: Actually, my situation was really about being at a Black college at a time when it did not deal with the Black experience and Black studies per se. Things were never even at the point where you could say, "They're doing Black material, but leaving Black women out" because there was very little Black ma

terial done, period. But it is true that the ones who did show up were Richard Wright and Ralph Ellison. But, given the general dearth of what we studied, it didn't stick out like a sore thumb.

BS: But in later years that certainly was the case, not only in Black colleges but in Black studies generally. Also, the same was true at my school in that women's studies was a non-existent concept but certainly racism was a factor that excluded us from the curriculum.

from ideas to reality GTH: Let's talk a bit about how we did

BSO'JAB. Actually, the book was a long time in the making. It began as a publication idea with Barbara on the Modern Language Association Com mission on the Status of Women in the Profession

and I took it over as one of my primary projects.

In the spring of 1977, we did a prospectus and sent out a call for papers which got some re sponses. But I think the fact that contributions didn't just come tumbling in was an index of how people felt about the work they were doing, the difficulty of pulling the book together, the newness of the concept, etc. We got some things

*Barbara Smith has written a story about a Black woman at a white college, "The Convent", Sinister Wisdom #19. Write SW, P.O. Box 660, Amherst, MA 01004.

that we used, and we augmented those with spec ific solicitations because we wanted a truly multidisciplinary book, which relates to adding Pat's (Patricia Bell Scott, the third editor?oobyf social science expertise, and also one that re flected the wealth of work that people were doing. Some things which came in later?for example, the pieces on health and Black women in the church?we realized that we needed be

cause they helped round out the book. We went

through a process of gathering, editing, and assembling, and gave the manuscript near-final form in the spring of 1979. The Feminist Press had always expressed a commitment to the book, and ended up being the publisher. ** BS: I think that even before we decided to do the book there were motivations for feel

ing that it was needed. I think some of these

are explained by the introductory material that appears in the book itself, but Gloria and I, and also Pat Bell Scott, the third

collaborator, had been involved in teaching courses on Black subjects, moving into teach ing courses on Black women, and finding just an incredible lack of analytical, pulled together material for our work. Gloria and I were fortunate because we were in litera

ture and there's a great body of Afro-Ameri can women's literature even though there is not nearly enough theory about it. In other disciplines, like the social sciences and history, and other aspects of the arts, there's not even as much. So we felt a need to have some resource book besides the loose

manila folders that we were using to try to make our work understandable and real.

GTH: Another aspect is that even though all of us who were interested in Black women

were not teaching the subject, we were begin ning to do research in the area. In my case, even before I taught a course, I was studying Black women poets. There is a way in which, if you are working in the academy, your re search and teaching feed and complement each other. When I started to do research and

found out about all of these wonderful writers, I wanted a place where I could do something with that, in addition to publishing an article here and there. It's the kind of thing you want to bring into the classroom. The work that goes on in Black women's studies is

composed of what people do for research as well as what they teach.

BS: The book was basically gathered by 1979 and during this same period, a Black

feminist movement was also growing in this country. It is no accident that at the very time when Black and other Third World feminism

is flourishing, that you begin to see people be definite about something called Black women's studies or Third World women's studies. We talk in the Introduction about how Black

feminism supported us in our day-to-day lives, and also supported us in our knowing that this was the right direction to be going in. GTH: It's like you-and me meeting at that 1974 MLA convention, and also being in volved together in the Black feminist retreat group. There is a way in which those dual

components of "professional scholarship" and

activist Black feminism came together making us do that work, because neither one alone is the motivation for the book.

That's also reflected in what's in BSOUAB,

our wanting it to be a product related to both aspects.

jubilation or shock?

BS: I also wonder, now that the book is out, how many people who have not been that committed to the women's movement are

dealing with some of the material. We begin by talking about Black feminism and the racism

within the women's movement, which implies that the women's movement is a valid place to be putting in some energy to get it right about issues of race and class and difference.

I wonder sometimes how this has affected.peo ple. We haven't really gotten much feedback about that, either jubilation or shock.

**But Some of Us are Brave: Black Women's

Studies is available at bookstores for $8.95 in paperback, $16.95 cloth, or order directly from The Feminist Press, Box 334, Old Westbury, NY 11568.

GTH: I'm thinking about the statement in the introduction to the effect that only a Black feminist perspective will cause us to do the kind of work that makes for Black

women's studies. I suspect that there are people who would not wholeheartedly subscribe to that. We go on to say that that kind of Black feminist analysis would yield the most incisive results. We've always talked

about the fact that everyone who is doing work on Black women does not approach it in that way?even though after you use that perspective and come up with the work that proceeds from it, everybody goes along with the work and thinks it's great.

BS: I think we should say more about that too. No, I don't think everyone would agree with that perspective. They don't like feminism, but they like what you're putting out. And one of the reasons they do is because there's very little on women of color to begin with, and also because feminism does give this clear, no-nonsense perspective on the problems, issues, and realities that affect our lives. For

example, the essay that I wrote several years ago, "Toward a Black Feminist Criticism," which

is in BSOUAB, is an essay in which I suggest that you might want to look at Torn* Morrison's novel Sula as a lesbian novel. I can't tell

you how many people have said, "I never under stood what was going on in that book until I read your essay." It just suggested a way of thinking about it. Other people go crazy be cause they think I'm overstepping the mark. It's an example of a perspective allowing you some room to understand what indeed this is in

front of our face(syf .

GTH: The other thing it does besides just allowing you room is to enable you to keep Black women at the center, which is really what it's all about. We keep talking about coming in at the margins, the edges, in the footnotes, and the appendices. You really can not develop the sort of insights you need un less you just constantly do that, keep Black women at the- center of the work. It's where

a lot of people who think they're doing it, lose it.

"search for a long-overdue

partnership"

BS: Maybe we should move on to talk about what's happening in universities in relationship to examining the material on Black women. For example, what indications have we seen since we did the book, which was a couple of years ago, that there may be more

openness to studying and writing about Black women. You just did a panel at the conference of the National Council for Black Studies in

Chicago. GTH: In certain ways, that panel was a historic first for the National Council for

Black Studies. It was a plenary session called "Black Studies and Women's Studies: Search for

a Long-Overdue Partnership." Having that ses sion there indicates that Black women's studies

as a concept, an idea, is definitely beginning to sink into some minds which did not previously conceive of it in that way. I think that they're also seeing that Black women's studies is the logical nexus: it's what happens when you put Black studies and women's studies together. For a while now, women's studies has been try ing to figure out and establish how Black women's studies and women's studies go together ?now it's a matter of talking about Black studies and Black women's studies. The fact that there was such a session attests to the

growth of Black women's studies as a field because at a time when the number of Black

studies programs have decreased, Black women's studies is still in a growth period?especially the number of courses. Somebody said recently that about 200 BWS courses are being taught, whereas when we did the count for the book it was around 50. We can also look at the number

of books of all types that are being published. That session reflected some of these happenings.

(continued on next pageyf

page 22/off our backs/may 1982

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_women's studies

{continued from previous pageyf

It was also very important to me to be at a

conference of predominantly Black people to talk aboutf Black women's studies because Black studies programs are male-dominated. It was a

chance to say to the Black males who run these

programs that the time is now for dealing with Black women's studies, and that they have a responsibility for doing so.

BS: Often, in speaking at schools all over the country, the speech is co-sponsored by women's studies and Black studies, but that's the only kind of interaction they ever have. More and more, a'Black studies program will

invite you to come, with women's studies being the supplementary support. But always, these departments are top heavy with Black men.

GTH: I think it's also true that even though the programs and the men who run the

programs are willing to co-sponsor you, there is a way in which they see Black women's stud ies as being "women's work" still and have not

really conceptualized the fact that they are going to have to re-educate themselves and do

some of that kind of work. The panel I was on was originally planned so that all of the

speakers were women. That says something about how they are still feeling. If that attitude continues, the transformation of Black studies and the Black studies curricu lum won't occur.

Gloria T. Hull, Barbara Smith, Patricia Bell Scott

BS: As with the question of women's studies generally--are men competent to teach

it? I don't think that Black men necessarily should be teaching courses entirely devoted to

Black women. I think what you're getting at is that if you're going to teach courses about Black people, which is what Black studies

claims to do at this point, you've got to include half the race.

GTH: That's exactly what I'm talking about.

BS: That would really transform our under standing of Black historical reality and Black experience in every single realm. The male dominated perspective upon our lives here is

really not an accurate one. They're leaving out so much. There's incredibly innovative and good work being done by Black women in every conceivable area of study, like Black women's labor history. We're getting into the complexities finally as opposed to the generalities.

GTH: Even on the level of generalities, there's a lot that can be done in Black studies

courses--!ike making sure that you talk about Angela Davis in a Black Revolutionary Thought course as well as Malcolm X and Frederick

Douglass. It's the kind of responsibility that the programs have to the students, who are mostly young Black women.

BS: Say more about that?you're talking about the composition of Black studies courses?

GTH: Yes ? the student population served by Black studies courses is more female than

male. It's also interesting ? the women (I don't know where they're getting their glimmers of feminism fromyf D U H E H F R P L Q J D Z D U H W K D t they're being left out in a way that they may not have been earlier. When we were doing the book, we got letters from people saying "Well, I took all these courses and then I

noticed." I^think that people are noticing a little faster now and some of those women

are going into regular women's studies courses

looking for things that they're not getting. It's our responsibil ity to educate them about themselves in the ways that they should be educated and that they want. BS: What you're saying about Third World women being more interested in and com

mitted to women's studies is quite true. My experience in traveling this year in particular is that there'll be a few solid and committed

Third World women who are majoring or concen trating in women's studies, which was not true

even two years ago. And it may be incredibly hard for them to be in that situation, which is still a situation of some isolation. But

the thing is that they are doing it, and that means that we are probably getting a core of Third World feminists with women's studies

backgrounds.

GTH: And it is really hard because we are thrown back on the question of what do they get about themselves in most women's

studies courses that they're taking. It/s almost like Black women's studies is trying to make a home for them.

no BWS programs in US

BS: Something that people often ask us

is are there any Black women's studies programs in this country. To our knowledge, there are none. When you think about what it takes to

become institutionally supported, we are not that optimistic about seeing that soon. Yet there are other indications that Black women's

studies is becoming institutionalized. At Spelman, which is one of two Black women's

colleges in this country at this time, a new women's studies institute has just been funded. And because it's a Black college, it means that essentially their major concentration is upon Black women's experiences. So in certain ways, it may function in the future as a Black women's

studies institute, archives, repository, etc.

GTH: It certainly is unlikely that Black women's studies will be instituted as autono mous academic units. Even established Black

and women's studies programs are feeling be leaguered, and I think they are concerned about what they can do together to ensure

their survival. One of the things that might help is seeing Black women's studies as some

thing that could help bring the two together tii some kind of functioning way. It could

operate on a lot of levels?maximizing funds for speakers and collateral activities, deal ing the politics of operating within the white-male-dominated university, and so forth. It seems that people are beginning to talk at a time when everybody is in jeopardy.

BS: Examples of that kind of thing happening is that in the five-college area in western Massachusetts, they've gotten a grant to do work to try and bring the- two programs together. Also, in New England last February, there was a conference, "Black Women in Black

and Women's Studies." Pat's project, the Black Women's Educational Policy Network, is another example. That has nationwide impact because it identified people and institutions and support all over the country for Black women in education.

WE'VE HaPIDO0SE

OUR MWORlKf

challenging academics'

resistance to change

GTH: One of the final things we wanted to talk about was Black women's studies in

relationship to women's studies and the women who run those programs. I think we can see,

in the past two or three years particularly, that there has been more consciousness in the women's movement and therefore in some women's

studies programs about racism and doing anti racist work. We have seen Black women be

included--sometimes as tokens, but sometimes in a more organic fashion. All of these indications are good, but as with all kinds of progress, it has to be continuous and move to higher levels to be really effective. In this case, it doesn't just involve knowing that you should have some kind of Third World consciousness, and it doesn't involve just going through "correct" anti-racist form without true substance, either (which is

something that we can start to see happeningyf . It's almost as if the challenges get greater, and there's still the danger of everything remaining on the same tokenist level without real personal, political, or institutional change.

BS: I feel like what is required for that

deeper change is an actual political understanding and commitment. I often think that academic

women are incredibly reluctant to really bring

about change and that they've been fairly con tent with the way things are; that they only want the points for doing what's correct at the time, but when it comes to really putting

themselves in positions of jeopardy by siding

against racism, they don't want to do that. They just want to look good and to hang onto their privilege. I'm not talking about all white academic women, but I probably am talk

ing about most, because most white academic women have no interest in women's studies,

period, of whatever color. So it's quite a challenge. I think it will be a long time before we see the kinds of transformations

that we want to, but there are indications

that a lot is happening. One of the things that we wanted to do is to also be a support for the work of women of color who are not

Afro-American women. For example, there's a

new journal out of the University of Indiana at Bloomington called "The Third Woman" edited by a Latina woman. One thing I'd like to see done differently in the next volume of Black women's studies, no matter who ends up actually

doing it, is a much better integration of ma terials on Black Lesbians. Although we have much more about Lesbians in BSOUAB than in the

average book on Black women, most of the ma terial still appears in the literature section and, unfortunately, many other articles in other disciplines are written as if all Black women are straight. As editors, we certainly didn't believe that, but it's really hard to

get Black women teachers and researchers to confront their homophobia so they're able to teach and write challengingly about all women. This is especially a shame when there's so much raw material to be found about the

experiences of Black Lesbians globally, in Africa, the Caribbean as well as in the U.S.

GTH: Just a couple more comnepts about whom we saw as the audience for the book. It's clearly relevant to the women who are

involved in women's studies research, writing, teaching, etc. But it is definitely also a book for a variety of readers, all readers, anyone who can read--and particularly for Third World women who are interested in gathering information about ourselves and

our past. It's organized such that many kinds of people should be able to get a lot of good from it.

BS: In the same light, I also want to say that Black and Third World women's studies/ education is flourishing?and not just in an academic setting. Different courses are taught in prisons. There's an article in our

book about teaching a course at a YWCA in down town Detroit?community education. There is

currently going on in Brooklyn a lecture series on Black women sponsored by the Sisterhood of

Black Single Mothers. It's essentially a course, but so many people come into that

situation that it's a real community gathering: convinced feminist Black women, non-convinced people, men, and children too. That's

ultimately the kind of grassroots Black women's studies that we hope our book will give support to.

off our backs/may 1982/page 23

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